Day 4: VA's Kuhn says schools' athletic facility leases do not principally benefit veterans
Amid a testy and candid day of testimony, the West LA VA administrator conceded that the VA's agreements with UCLA and the Brentwood School do not primarily serve veterans interests.
Deputy Medical Center Director John Kuhn took the stand Friday, the trial’s fourth day, and fielded a volley of questions from plaintiffs about his oversight of the VA campus, available services and housing units and the campus’ Master Plan.
The exchange became testy at times with Judge David Carter weighing in on one line of questioning in which he threatened Kuhn, plaintiffs and the defense with a weekend sojourn to distant housing units that are available to veterans.
Kuhn’s testimony came after Sally Hammitt, chief of Community Engagement and Reintegration Service (CERS), continued her testimony from Thursday. Questioned by the defense, Hammitt explained the organizational structure of CERS, the programs and employees she oversees and the goals and outcomes of each program.
Kuhn arrived at the VA in Los Angeles in the fall of 2022, having previously served as the first director of Supportive Services for Veteran Families.
The plaintiffs’ counsel inquired as to some of the programs he had implemented during his time in Los Angeles, such as a hotline homeless veterans can call to receive immediate, temporary housing.
“The idea behind the hotline was we wanted to establish same-day access for veterans who were unsheltered,” Kuhn said. “The most dangerous place for a veteran is on the street. There are significant mortality, morbidity risks for veterans on the street.”
Kuhn touted the hotline as helping get many veterans off the street. Call volumes were “quite high,” he said, adding that they have since “dropped off.”
Questioning turned to the Master Plan which calls for an additional 1,200 beds to be added to the campus.
“And is it the first job the first job of VA… to get veterans off the streets?” asked plaintiffs counsel Roman Silberfeld.
“It is,” Kuhn said.
“And you read the Master Plan as addressing those issues?” Silberfeld asked.
“It is a partial effort to address those issues because it was never meant to be the entire effort,” Kuhn replied.
Silberfeld pressed on with the line of questions, asking if Kuhn believed the Master Plan would not have a “robust impact” on veteran homelessness.
“No, it would have the impact it needs to have,” Kuhn said. “The Master Plan is not designed to end homelessness in Los Angeles. It's designed to have a contribution to that goal.”
"If Congress wanted to give us the authority, VA would build housing."
Earlier this year, Jasper Craven, a contributor to “Home of the Brave,” spoke with two VA officials vital to the future of veteran housing policy. One was John Kuhn, the other was C. Brett Simms, a longtime VA official now overseeing the VA’s Office of Asset Enterprise Management, which oversees the VA’s property portfolio.
Craven found Kuhn and Simms to be remarkably candid in their reflections on where things have gone wrong at the West LA VA, where they find hope, and the many challenges ahead. Read their interview here.
Kuhn was then asked to address the low volume of housing referrals made by the VA to Los Angeles area housing authorities and if those issues were due to low staffing rates.
Silberfeld noted that in 2023, the average weekly referral rate was four.
“It’s not that now,” Kuhn said.
Kuhn added that although staffing was part of the issue, veterans’ difficulties using vouchers, stringent housing requirements and housing availability also contributed.
“I appreciate the answer,” Silberfeld said. “That entire answer, though, Mr. Kuhn is about the utilization of vouchers, not about whether VA is doing its job to refer homeless veterans to the housing agencies. Can we agree about that?”
“I agree that we would like to make more referrals for vouchers, certainly,” Kuhn said.
Silberfeld continued to press Kuhn regarding staffing vacancies and whether they contributed to veterans churning out of housing.
“I'll make an admission right now that may speed things up,” Kuhn interjected. “When I arrived we did not have enough staff. We had a choice to either continue placements, knowing services would not be adequate, or say to our veterans that ‘We're not going to place you because we don't have adequate services.’”
During the examination, Kuhn was also asked about areas of the West LA campus that are leased to UCLA and the Brentwood School for athletic facilities.
“Do you believe that the use of the baseball stadium by UCLA has, as its predominant focus, the provision of services to veterans,” Silberfeld asked.
“I do not,” replied Kuhn.
Regarding the lease by the Brentwood School, which includes rent and providing in-kind services such as the use of athletic facilities and transportation services for veterans, Kuhn was candid.
“I don't want to defend the in-kind contributions,” Kuhn said, “but the logic behind it is they’re giving above and beyond what's required.”
Even without the in-kind contributions, Kuhn explained, the Brentwood School would still be meeting their contractual obligations. And Kuhn noted that the VA would be responsible for maintaining the land if the Brentwood School did not occupy it. (Silberman countered that the VA would then have the use of the acreage.)
“That said, no, it does not primarily benefit veterans,” Kuhn said.
Later, as Kuhn was testifying about an off-campus Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing unit located in Templeton, more than 200 miles north of LA, the defense objected to the use of a LAHSA website to obtain vacancy data.
Judge Carter said the information could be “easily” verified or “called into question.”
“Do you feel like driving a little bit,” Carter asked the defense counsel. “Think very carefully about this, because you’re about to verify this for the court this weekend.”
Carter said he would also order a plaintiff counsel to also attend to make it “co-equal.”
“Do you believe that the use of the baseball stadium by UCLA has, as its predominant focus, the provision of services to veterans,” Silberfeld asked.
“I do not,” replied Kuhn.
“Let’s bear down on you: Is this one of your off-site locations that you refer veterans to?” Carter asked.
“It is, but-,” Kuhn started.
“Is this accurate information or not?” Carter asked.
“It should be-,” Kuhn said.
“No, not should be. Is it accurate information or not?” Carter asked.
Kuhn ultimately agreed to have his staff verify the information on the website by Monday and left the stand temporarily to make a phone call “so I can instruct my staff to get working on this.”
Near the end of Kuhn’s testimony, Carter addressed HUD’s sudden decision on Wednesday to discontinue its policy of considering veterans’ disability benefits as income, making some veterans ineligible for housing assistance. The previous policy was a major tenet of the lawsuit.
Kuhn acknowledged the development.
We have to wait for the formal guidance to come to the public housing authorities, Kuhn said, adding that he hopes the guidance to come quickly.
“Before this trial ends,” Carter asked, smiling.
But Carter also noted that the decision may not be adequate for the plaintiffs, and that he may still have to make a ruling. “Why don't we just leave this on the table without further input by me?” he said.
Proceedings for Powers v. McDonough will continue on Monday, August 12 at 8:30 a.m.
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